.....and the serial number is.....

[Dennisthe Menace]

I borrowed this (well sort of ) to help expose some of the scam garbage that is going around. Some of you are aware of it, others are not.
This Senior Member from the Vintage Guitar and Bass Forum UK known as Mike had posted this in August. There are a lot of folks giving out
the full serial number when they go to sell an instrument....and that may not be a good idea. A good example is the most recent ad posted
by Greg in which he is selling the ink blue 12 string 'Ventures Model.' He cautiously uses this practice as well. It may not be such a bad idea
to get into this kind of practice the next time you decide to sell your instrument or whatever the item may be.....

#1 Report Post
Old 08-23-2010, 03:08
XXXXXXXXX## XXXXXXXXX## is offline
Senior Member

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
Posts: 265
Default Beware - Vintage Guitar Scam
I was made aware recently of a scam that has been going on regarding vintage musical instruments.

Here's how it works...
The scammer searches forums for vintage instruments and chooses one he fancies. If the owner has listed the serial number in one of his posts it's easy.
The scammer then generates a fake invoice from a decade or two ago, from a company that no longer exists and goes to the police and tells them that it was stolen years ago. The police trace the actual owner who posted on the forum and collect the item for the scammer. Job done. It's not that difficult for the police to track someone from a forum via an ISP and IP addresses, etc.

It has been recommended on another musical forum that people posting serial numbers should replace the last two numbers with stars, i.e. GE2345**. The first few numbers are normally only needed to trace a date.

Just a warning, it's up to members of the forum to decide whether it's risky or not.

Mike.
__________________
Retired Radio and Electronics Engineer residing in Cambridgeshire.

[Veenture]

Thank you for passing on the warning Dennis, it had never occured to me that a serial number could be hijacked in this manner

[rog43win]

Geeeez Louise......and just when you thought it was safe to come out of the water......

Too bad people have to resort to tactics like this to get money.....thanks for posting...

Roger

[Mr. Bill]

I've heard of this scam since the mid 70's, the difference was that guys would go into a store and "steal" serial numbers from used guitars in the store, and then do the police report. Most honest dealers had paper trails to prove where the guitars came from and could disprove the supposed thefts.

While the online part is new, the question that the police should ask is, "If this guitar was stolen from you 15 years ago, and you have all of this paperwork proving ownership, why didn't you file a police report back them?"

I think that this may almost border on urban legend. Has this actually happened to anyone out there?

[Dennisthe Menace]

I think that this may almost border on urban legend. Has this actually happened to anyone out there?

I see your point Bill. But it also seems plausible, so I decided to post this here on the Forum just to
see if it has happened to anyone here, or if they know someone that this did happen to.

[Desert Surfer]

Dennis:

I've lost a 1963 "the Ventures" Model 45 years ago. s/n is #0038

Just kidding.

Shouldn't you take off that s/n from your signature?

[Dennisthe Menace]

Dennis:
I've lost a 1963 "the Ventures" Model 45 years ago. s/n is #0038
Just kidding.
Shouldn't you take off that s/n from your signature?

LOL!! uhmmm....nope....but I appreciate the concern Vincent. However mine says:
.....proud owner and documented:
1963 "the Ventures" Model s/n #0038....

[Sarah93003]

I'm going to go with "urban myth" on this one. I have a fair bit of experience with Evidence Law in civil litigation and I know just how easy it is to refute a "writing" (printed words) and it's lack of authenticity. Merely presenting a "receipt" would not fly in a court of law if the opposing side objected. In the court of law, writings have to be "certified" by the custodian of records of a particular establishment. I have no issue whatsoever telling of my serial numbers and I have no worry of someone claiming it is stolen property and trying to prove as such with a phony piece of paper. Without witness testimony or certification by the custodian of records, it would likely be considered heresay.

Below are a few California Evidence codes that pertain to this issue.

Evidentiary law would prevail. More than likely such a “receipt” would be considered heresay.

Evidence Code 637

Since 1965 legislative law has held that, “The things which a person possesses are presumed to be owned by him.

In Criminal actions,
Evidence code 607

“When a presumption affecting the burden of proof operates in a criminal action to establish presumptively any fact that is essential to the defendant’s guilt, the presumption operates only if the facts that give rise to the presumption have been found or otherwise established beyond a reasonable doubt and, in such case, the defendant need only raise a reasonable doubt as to the existence of the presumed fact.”

Division 11 – Writings
Authentication and Proof of writings

Evidence Code 1401 Authentication of a writing is required before it may be received in evidence. Authentication of a writing is required before secondary evidence of its content may be received in evidence.



Disclaimer: remember, I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice, simply my opinion based on my education in the legal field and experience in civil litigation.

[Veenture]

Good to know Sarah. I can appreciate someone not wanting to disclose a serial number -for whatever reason- but then there are also those who do not want to disclose in public a serial number when he/she is trying to cash in from a stolen item

[Dennisthe Menace]

I'm just glad that Sarah is on 'our side.'.....