Pickup Magnet Info

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raygun85
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Pickup Magnet Info

Postby raygun85 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:30 am

WARNING! This is more of an in-depth article than a quick post or an open discussion. Enjoy! ;)

I finally had a chance to check the strength of some magnets against some breakaway magnets we had laying in the shop. The ones I tested were the old 60's magnets. I didn't test the later style yet. I left my notes in the shop so I don't remember the exact readings. I'll post them later if I can remember to.

A little preliminary info:

The strength of most of the Alnico V magnets I have tested in the past are in the range of 750-950G. Depending on the composition of the alloy, and whether the magnets are saturated, the readings can be lower or higher. But those readings are typical, generally speaking. Alnico II typically checks a little lower, in the range of 550-650G. Again, depending on the aforementioned factors, the readings can be higher or lower. Alnico IV is similar to Alnico V in terms of field strength. Maybe a little stronger, on average. But again, variations in the alloy mix can cause higher or lower readings.

Ok, onto the breakaway magnets...

When I tested the breakaways, all of their readings were relatively low and the poles were mismatched. One particular magnet read in the low 200's on the North pole and read in the low 400's on the South pole. I remember this particular magnet. It came out of a set of pickups from a customer who complained that his pickups had lost volume and clarity in recent years, sounding muddier and muddier with very little volume compared to when they were new. I chose this as my primary test subject due to it's peculiarity.

I decided to take the magnet mentioned above, an Alnico II, and an Alnico V that have been laying in the shop for almost two years. My plan was to saturate all three and compare the readings. As I mentioned earlier, I will have to look at my notes out in the shop for more precise readings, but after charging, the Alnico II was reading on the low side of 700G (about 730, if my memory serves me correctly); the Alnico V was reading just under 950G; and the 60's breakaway magnet was reading around 870G. I don't remember exactly, but the poles were pretty even after charging.

Based upon those readings, I would have to say that it seems very reasonable that the 60's breakaway magnets are likely either Alnico IV or Alnico V. Alnico IV generally has a more transparent tone, with a flat frequency response. (I'm working on a device to test that soon.) Depending on who you ask, Alnico V usually pushes the mids, has more high-end, and "tighter bass response." Personally, that translates into garbage to my ears because if we have more bass, more mids, and more treble, then the frequency spectrum is still flat, it really depends on exactly which frequencies are accentuated or attenuated. I think Alnico V has less highs and more mids. But it depends on who you ask. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. There are other factors, such as whether the magnets are anisotropic or isotropic. I believe the breakaway magnets are isotropic, whereas the Alnico magnets I tested are, without a doubt, anisotropic. According to some people, an isotropic Alnico V usually reads a little lower than an anisotropic Alnico V and has a little "warmer" tone.

Now, as for the ridges...when I put the test probe on the side or surface of the magnet I get a normal reading. When I put it between the ridges, it drops a little. But when I coupled it with a coil and a row of pole-pieces the readings were EXACTLY the same from pole to pole and in-between the poles (exactly 623G, as I remember.) The readings drop dramatically when I moved the probe to about 1/8" away from the side of the screw head. In fact, the drop was around half of what I was getting at the poles. The further I moved the probe from the poles, the greater the drop.

I should mention that a general rule of thumb is that the stronger a pickup magnet is, the more output and the higher the resonant frequency. So if some old Mosrite pickups are sounding a little weak or muddy, but you're getting a reading from the lead wires, then don't be quick to dismiss them as a lost cause. The magnets may need to be charged. As a pickup maker and researcher, I can say that this is very enlightening. While these tests are not conclusive, we do now have some reasonable plausibility for believing that the breakaway magnets were Alnico V; but there is also room for doubt as to whether they could be Alnico IV. We also do not know whether they are anisotropic or isotropic magnets. I would wager they are probably isotropic when taking into consideration the manufacturer's intended usage and target audience. But that's just my opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Another variable that must be taken into consideration is the relative strength of the magnets. Were all the magnets saturated? We likely have no way of ever knowing. Again, taking into consideration the manufacturer's intended usage and market, they may have been given a nice zap back at the factory that would fully saturate them. But how long did they lay around before being installed in a pickup? They were probably stuck together in "bricks" from the manufacturer until being broken off and installed. When magnets experience friction with other metals and other magnets they experience "wrenching", which can degauss them and even manipulate the orientation. So what was the strength by the time they reached the end-user? That could be the spark to a never-ending debate. I would say that it was probably between 500-700G, but that is very debatable. Using my test magnet above as an example, I would say that since the pickup it was taken out of was North-oriented and the North pole of the magnet was reading in the 200's; and the customer complained that his pickups had weakened and become muddy over time, that is a pretty good indication that most Mosrite pickups were probably not that low to start with upon leaving the factory. That is my sole basis for proposing the 500-700G estimate.

The important thing to remember in all of this is that pickup tone is either directly or indirectly affected by many variables - machine vs. hand or, "scatterwinding"; gauge of wire; the size of the insulation on the wire (e.g. "red wire" vs. Formvar wire, or "green wire"...etc...); the size and shape of the coil, which is directly dependent on the bobbin; the bobbin material; the type, size, shape and permeability of the pole-pieces; and it just goes on and on and on. When it comes to Mosrite pickups, I feel that the choice of magnet is important when attempting to reproduce the original sound. To my knowledge, Ed Elliot and Curtis Novak both use Alnico V in their Mosrite reproductions. We use Alnico V as well. I would venture to say that I believe that we are all on the right track. I've heard great things about Ed's and Curtis' pickups and I hate comparisons between their pickups and ours. I think we are all reproducing very close and accurate reproductions. And while most everyone has been sure (not to mention satisfied) with the tone that we, Ed, and Curtis are getting from Alnico V magnets, I don't think any of us were 100% sure they were the "correct" magnets. WE are still not 100% sure, but I hope that my recent test may shed a little more light on the matter. I certainly think it is more plausible to believe that Alnico V are a good match in Mosrite reproduction pickups. I would like to begin testing Alnico IV eventually and compare the tone with the vintage magnets.
How dare you presume to inject, using reproducible facts and rational thought, an on-topic discussion into a thread that had degenerated from sarcasm, personal invective, and hand-waving arguments?

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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby oipunkguy » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:26 am

Wow matt, you really took some time to study this. it's quite enlighting. Quick question for ya. what's the difference between isotropic and anisotropic magnets? This term is new to me.
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby raygun85 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:21 am

Hey Aaron,

Isotropic magnets have equal magnetism in all directions (a.k.a "unoriented" magnet.)

Anisotropic magnets are made to have sort of a "grain" that gives them a preferred orientation; they will usually be stronger and keep their strength longer than an isotropic magnet. Obviously, this makes them more efficient. If you try to change the orientation, they will lose strength relatively rapidly over time. Most common pickup magnets are anisotropic.

Some people say they sound "warmer". I don't hear too much difference myself. Other folks also say they just sound like a degaussed anisotropic magnet. I believe the magnetic flux density may be different and that could affect tone (e.g. the way the flux affects the strings and they way they are altered by the mechanical movement of the strings...etc...). I know that Seymour deliberately manipulates the strength of magnets in the pickups that he makes to achieve various tonal palettes. Like I said, I don't hear too much difference myself, except that an anisotropic magnet is stronger at full saturation. Once again, a saturated magnet is not necessarily going to give you the desired tone. But anisotropic magnets are probably a fine choice for reproducing the Mosrite sound.

Another variable to factor in is that not all magnetic manufacturers use exactly the same composition (or, "recipe" ;) ) and that industry standards are not necessarily the same as they were in the 50's and 60's. From what I understand, all grades of Alnico alloys are made differently than they were back in the day, at least to some degree.
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby MWaldorf » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:47 am

This is fascinating.

An interesting aside about anisotropic magnets - one of the ways that magnets become anisotropic is if they are created while the metal is molten and cooling - as the material solidifies, there's a preferential grain assuming the magnetic field is consistent.

The ocean floors are basaltic rock, very high in iron. Ocean floors are created at "spreading centers" such as the mid-Atlantic ridge. As the magma reaches the ocean floor from below and cools to become rock, it gains an anisotropic element due to the earth's magnetic field. Researchers in the 1950s and 1960s discovered that there are "zebra stripes" on the ocean floors - bands of rock with a magnetic orientation north, and some with the orientation reversed, with the "north" facing the south pole. These bands layer out in patterns centered on the spreading centers, gaving evidence of both plate tectonics and periodic reversals in the earth's magnetic field.

OK, nerdy geologic observation complete. Back to the regularly scheduled programming.
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby raygun85 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:17 pm

Very interesting and relevant post, Mel! I remember learning about the 'zebra striping' that occurs while still in school. Another interesting thing I learned a long time ago is that South attracts North, so when our compasses point North, they're actually being attracted by a giant South pole - the NORTH POLE! Is that confusing or what? :?

Ok...enough of that. Back to the nerdery!
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby raygun85 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:59 am

Ok, so I've got some emails and messages from friends and forum members who were so blown away by my post about the breakaway magnets that they've been left scratching their heads. Sorry! :oops: :ugeek: I tried to avoid begging the question as much as possible, but there are few things that must be taken for granted:

1. My preposition is that the breakaway magnets were Alnico V, so I set out to find "evidence" for this (kinda like Eugène Dubois when he set out to find "Java Man") :roll:
2. Since historical science cannot be observed the way experimental science is in a controlled environment, I had to settle for studying the characteristics of the magnets and comparing them to other magnets.
3. Since I have no practical way of breaking down the alloy and studying the composition of the metals in the magnets, the best thing I could think of was to compare the magnetic field strength to that of other common grades of Alnico. (Remember that my conjecture is that the breakaway magnets are Alnico. For now, we have no way to verify it. I'm only going by what I know from Tony Hunt and other secondary sources.)
4. My experiment reveals that the magnetic field strength was comparable to Alnico IV and Alnico V (This really proves nothing.)
5. Based on that, I form the hypothesis that the magnets must be either Alnico IV or Alnico V, though the readings only prove that the magnetic field strength is only comparable to those grades. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is, in fact, Alnico IV or V; it also doesn't necessarily prove that it isn't. But based on all of the secondary evidence from a few credible sources, and the fact that the magnets do give us comparable readings, we have more reason for believing they were probably Alnico IV or Alnico V than for believing they were not. Though my findings are inconclusive and don't really give us any more substantial "evidence" than we had before, we would have a lot less reason for believing they were Alnico V (or IV) if the readings were either much higher (over 1,000G) or much lower (less than 600G) after being fully charged.

So basically, the conjecture that the breakaway magnets were Alnico V is just a little more plausible than it was before. One thing that we can be sure of - the breakaway magnets were most likely NOT any grade of ceramic. We know that because they're not strong enough (and because they're the wrong color.) Chances are they're not neodymium because they're not strong enough. I'm not sure about Samarium Cobalt because I've never really worked with them before and I don't know what sort of readings to expect. But Alnico probably would've been more common and accessible back then (just as it is today.) A few Mosrite employees and other credible sources seem to agree that they were Alnico. And the readings I got were comparable to the range we could expect for Alnico IV and V. So it is definitely plausible.
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby oipunkguy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:23 am

And according to google, Neodymium magnets were not developed until 1982. Neodymium magnets also wouldn't have been an ideal magnet as a breakaway version because the magnet itself is very brittle. So much in fact all the magnets you find made of that composition is usually triple plated to hold them together. This is a great thread, I hope it keeps going.
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby raygun85 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:38 am

Good point Aaron! I'd completely overlooked the fact that some magnetic materials weren't even available in the mid-60's. To add to that, I believe that Alnico's history can be traced back to the 1930's, while ceramic can be traced back to the 50's. I think Samarium Cobalt goes back to the late 60's or early 70's. So just by looking at the history of magnetic science and industry we can rule out a few and deduce that it must have been Alnico or ceramic. The only magnets that predate those two would be Cobalt Steel.
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Re: Pickup Magnet Info

Postby oipunkguy » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:31 pm

according to this book I been reading about Les Paul and the early history of Gibson electrics, the p-90 was the first pickup made by gibson and these used alnico V magnets. the resigned p-90 pickup that came in the neck position in the first LP customs and the super 400's were also alnico V's just each string had it's own individual height adjustable magnet. the first PAF humbuckers were alnico II, III, or IV's. IV's being the most common, but never alnico V's until the 60's. a little off topic from the mosrite pickup, but my point is alnicos were generally the most common choice by most guitar manufacturers of the 50's and 60's so I think you are on the right track that it's an alnico.
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No Such Thing As Isotropic Alnico V

Postby raygun85 » Sat May 05, 2012 12:21 am

Apparently, there is no such thing as an isotropic Alnico V. For reference, in music electronics lingo, isotropic translates into unoriented.

Below is a copy of an email I received from Dr. Ewan Goodier from http://www.e-magnetsuk.com, back in March. I haven't had time to post this on the forum, but a recent phone conversation sparked some stagnant brain matter and reminded me to post this. Why am I posting this? The reason why this is important is because of all the hooey floating around in the music electronics business. There exist magnet retailers out there (and even some overseas manufacturers) who would have the uninformed buying public continue on in darkness, believing that such a thing as an "unoriented Alnico V magnet" exists. Why? CHA-CHING!!!Profits, of course. By comparing the strength readings on other forums, I noticed that "unoriented Alnico V magnets" seemed to be lower, with many people describing the tone as being more like an Alnico II or sometimes an Alnico III. I finally got my hands on some Alnico V magnets and found out that trying to change the magnetic orientation only degaussed the magnet to the point that I was getting no reading at all. I tried this on four magnets before giving up. They only wanted to be charged one direction and, when saturated, they read where I woud expect to find anisotropic Alnico V's, over 750-800. Definitely the telltale sign of an ordinary anisotropic Alnico V magnet. I finally contacted an expert and asked them if all of this was just a bunch of hooey or it was based in science. You can read his reply below. I consider Dr. Goodier to be a credible source.

So why is this on the Mosrite Forum? It's just part of my tireless crusade to combat hooey in the musical instrument manufacturing industry and level the playing field for the manufacturer and the consumer. We specialize in Mosrite parts and products so this seemed like a good place to start. Plus it is relevant to this all-but-burned-out cinder of a thread. So if anyone ever tries to sell you an "unoriented Alnico V magnet", or a pickup equipped with one, think about the FACTS and ignore the cheap advertising slogans about "tone."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Matt,

Isotropic materials can be magnetised in any direction and in almost any pattern (subject to the magnetising coil fixture design).

Anisotropic materials have a locked-in fixed preferred axis of magnetisation, meaning you can only magnetised them in one axis only - they are much stronger than isotropic materials. More magnetic domains can be aligned with this axis so they give more output in that direction.

Alnico 5 is a high power alnico and can only therefore ever be produced in anisotropic form.

The University of Birmingham's Magnetics research group web page probably gives better technical explanation.

Kind regards,

Ewan

Dr Ewan Goodier
Technical Sales Manager
E-Magnets UK Limited
Samson Works
Blagden Street
Sheffield
S2 5QT
UK

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