Elaine Frizzell

[dubtrub]

I was at Semie's shop in Oildale on Miner St. virtually everyday after school for about three months in 1959. I never seen any guitars finished or under construction other than the type that has the single cut away and usually one pickup. At that time Semie was painting them a black and red sunburst with no yellow. He was however fabricating aluminum vibrato out of sheet aluminum stock. I don't recall what the finished product look like but they did have big ball bearings. I don't recall seeing any vibrato's on a finished guitar, so I don't know what they went on.

The next time I saw Semie was after my family moved to Santa Maria and I got my white '62 Strat. My brother and I drove back to Bakersfield and out to his shop on Panama Lane where Semie gave me the black and red lacquer to refinish my brand new white '62. Ouch! At that time Semie had a helper, who I now presume to have been Bill Gruggett. He showed me his newly designed guitar under construction in the raw which was to become the Joe Maphis model as depicted in Bob K's photo. I don't remember him saying anything about having been building this style of guitar for the past couple of years since I had seen him. I recall it as, he had just designed it. I may be wrong though, but that's the way I remeber it.

[Veenture]

...//...The batch of 25 Standel guitars made in 1960 looked like this, not like the Joe Maphis/Ventures body shape (first picture, the brown single-cutaway guitar):

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=709&p=5907#p5907

The one underneath it, the black one in the Joe Maphis/Ventures body shape, is one of the next generation Standel prototypes, from '61 or '62. The actual birth of the Ventures body shape.

Deke

Deke, checking out the above link you've so conveniently dug up for us in this SUPER DISCUSSION, makes me feel rather guilty of not having gone through the forum's previous posts, full of treasures While one part of me says this repetition of the topic could've been avoided, onother part of me says: GREAT! it's good to elaborate on it again, drawing in new facts, theories and insights. It most definitely has enlightened me, adding to my yet very limited knowledge of Mosrite history. Can of worms Deke? ...no way, thanks!

[Veenture]

I was at Semie's shop in Oildale on Miner St. virtually everyday after school for about three months in 1959. I never seen any guitars finished or under construction other than the type that has the single cut away and usually one pickup. ...//...The next time I saw Semie was after my family moved to Santa Maria and I got my white '62 Strat...//...(Bill Gruggett)...//... showed me his newly designed guitar under construction in the raw which was to become the Joe Maphis model as depicted in Bob K's photo...//...I recall it as, he had just designed it. I may be wrong though, but that's the way I remeber it.

Wow Danny, also your firsthand account and recollection is very thought provoking. Do you know, the very thought of the reverse-strat design possibly being Bill Gruggett's idea has even crossed my mind! From what you say, the conclusion may be drawn that the "Ventures model" design dates probably from round 1962 (and not 1959). Most arguments and insights from the other knowlegeable members point in this direction as well. No free Hallmark guitar to be claimed as yet!
Perhaps Bill Gruggett may one day tell us what he remembers too, seeing he was so close to the fire!

[dubtrub]

Well, I'm sure the Hallmark would be an excellent guitar to win, however, I believe I'd prefer my own custom built clones. I have tried all the others including my originals and the new Fillmore's and I still prefer my home builds.

Perhaps Bill Gruggett may one day tell us what he remembers too, seeing he was so close to the fire!

Hopefully one of us will remember to ask him at the show on the 30th of May.

[Dennisthe Menace]

Deke posted:

Again, I hate to open up a can of old worms, and I certainly don't want to offend anybody, but I am offering my educated opinion.

Deke, PLEASE, open as many cans of worms as you wish! That's what this Forum is all about, and Veenture is right, I didn't even think about going back to check any existing posts about this, but I/We are glad you did .

the fact that the pots are from 1959 are not conclusive proof of anything in guitar dating--they are merely a general guideline to show that the guitar couldn't be any EARLIER than the pot date, but could have actually been made years after the pot date. It's a rough dating guideline at best.

Agreed, it is and always will be a 'Guideline' to give you a general idea of when the guitar was made....

A year or two later, as the legend goes, Bob Crooks of Standel wanted a different kind of guitar. He suggested to Semie that he take the shape of a Fender Stratocaster, flip it over and trace it. Semie supposedly did just that, and then he added a little Salvador Dali fairy dust, and the famous shape that we know was born.

WoW! I did not know that Bob had the idea of flipping a Strat over and tracing it. The interview that took place with Semie in "American Guitars" by Tom Wheeler suggests that it seemed to be Semie's idea, so now I'm a little confused, but hey, nothing is etched in stone ......

The batch of 25 Standel guitars made in 1960 looked like this, not like the Joe Maphis/Ventures body shape (first picture, the brown single-cutaway guitar):

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=709&p=5907#p5907

The one underneath it, the black one in the Joe Maphis/Ventures body shape, is one of the next generation Standel prototypes, from '61 or '62. The actual birth of the Ventures body shape

darn! And all this time, I had always thought that it was the 2nd GEN (batch) that Semie had made 25 of, which were rejected due to investors with Standel .
Thanks Deke ! And please open the can of worms when you see fit, or else I ain't never gonna learn anything 'rite.'

[EFElliott]

Gee, aint Mosrite history interesting,

Back in the day, I had quite a few conversations with Semie and Bill Gruggett about Mosrites
good ol' days, what Semie told me was Bob Crooks came to him, wanting him to build a line of
solid body Standel guitars as close as a Fender as possable without infringing on any patents.
Semie having a Strat at his shop in for repairs, grabbed it up filped it over on a piece of cardboard traced around it, added a touch of his own creative flair, wha-la, the new Standel.
Well Semie got started on the project but for some reason the deal fell through, Semie said all these guitars he started became Mosrites, probabilly why there is no Standel reverse Strat
prototype guitars out there.
But this is not batch that became the 61-62 Joe Maphis.
This is where Bill Gruggett comes in, Bill told me when he started working for Semie in 61-62, Semie was in the process of building a batch of 20 or so student guitars Shaped pretty much like a Ventures model but flat like a Fender,(the ones Semie started for Bob Crooks) the guitars had set walnut necks, sunburst finish, no german carve
no binding, no vibratos, one pickup, one piece aluminum bridge and stop tail piece.Semie liked His new design,but it wasn't quite there, so the next batch, Semie took it and cooled it up a bit with his German Carve ,added another pickup a vibrato and some binding to make it more apealing to professional guitar players, like his good buddy Joe.

Eddy

[Dennisthe Menace]

Gee, aint Mosrite history interesting,

Back in the day, I had quite a few conversations with Semie and Bill Gruggett about Mosrites
good ol' days, what Semie told me was Bob Crooks came to him, wanting him to build a line of
solid body Standel guitars as close as a Fender as possable without infringing on any patents.
Semie having a Strat at his shop in for repairs, grabbed it up filped it over on a piece of cardboard traced around it, added a touch of his own creative flair, wha-la, the new Standel.
Well Semie got started on the project but for some reason the deal fell through, Semie said all these guitars he started became Mosrites, probabilly why there is no Standel reverse Strat
prototype guitars out there.
But this is not batch that became the 61-62 Joe Maphis.
This where Bill Gruggett comes in. Bill told me when he started working for Semie in 61-62, Semie was in the process of building a batch of 20 or so student guitars Shaped pretty much like a Ventures model but flat like a Fender, set walnut necks, sunburst finish, no german carve
no binding, no vibratos, one pickup, one piece aluminum bridge and stop tail piece.Semie liked His new design,but it wasn't quite there,so it took it and cooled it up a bit with his German Carve ,added another pickup a vibrato and some binding to make it more apealing to professional guitar player, like his good buddy Joe.

Eddy

Thanks Eddy! Maybe this is where I got confused...but you had mentioned as well, that Semie had flipped the Strat,
being that it was possibly Semie's idea, and not Bob Crooks..?? (the BIG question here, LOL!)...or at least to me...

[Veenture]

Just milling on Eddy and Dennis’ latest additions to the thread, I’d like to say that at the end of the day, to me it doesn’t seem all that important really, who’s idea it was and who was linked to the first fruits of the offset shape.

Evidently the idea had been offered simply –perhaps casually even- to serve a practical purpose (avoiding infringement on Fender patents) and is not so much the outcome of an artistic approach in designing it. But I hasten to say that when Semie worked his wonderful talent on it, the end product with all the combined features nonetheless transformed it into such a fine instrument and piece of art -a real eye catcher! (Very interesting, -those Student models Eddy!)

It was fortunate too of course in getting to ride with the hugely popular Ventures for a couple of years, lifting it onto the level of becoming such a desirable and significant icon in the guitar world.

Maybe now it should be called something like the CROOKS-MOSELEY-STUDENT-MAPHIS-VENTURES model but that doesn’t sound very practical and it’s too late anyway to do so; it’s going to have to stay “the Ventures model”, always.

[EFElliott]

Hey there Veenture,

That shape will all ways be "The Ventures model" for me too.

Eddy

[Veenture]

Right-on Eddy!

BTW I'm glad you talked about the student model and showing us a picture of it too. I'ts really a NEAT (cool) model already as it is -being closest to the Strat still too! (no German carve and binding yet).
I certainly wouldn't mind having one, even though I'm not near to being a student anymore...age wise! (LOL)
Cheers, Paul